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	<title>Comments on: Neither Left Nor Right: Of Liberty And Libertarians</title>
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		<title>By: doug carkuff</title>
		<link>http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/neither-left-nor-right/comment-page-1/#comment-5396</link>
		<dc:creator>doug carkuff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 11:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/?p=6120#comment-5396</guid>
		<description>Linda, I&#039;m a little confused by your post.  You believe in liberty and you believe government should be limited to those functions that only government can effectively perform.  I think that makes you a libertarian.  I believe in liberty for liberty&#039;s sake and that it is the natural state of things, but I also believe that liberty will inevitably lead to a more humane/prosperous society and this is the only argument that will begin to reach those who believe that we need to engineer humanity and prosperity into society.  

Given the opportunity to function cooperatively and to live peacefully with each other, humans will do that because that is how we, in general, are hardwired.  If we were not, we would have expired as a species a hundred thousand years ago.  It doesn&#039;t take altruism or particular &quot;social consciousness&quot;.  Our intentions are irrelevant (as has been revealed time after time through human history - the road to hell having been paved over and over again with &quot;good intentions&quot;.  My point is that libertarianism is NOT utopian and it is the only political philosophy that is not and the side effect of liberty is a more humane society and that i more people understood that they would find that their contempt for libertarians is entirely misplaced.  My best, Doug</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Linda, I&#8217;m a little confused by your post.  You believe in liberty and you believe government should be limited to those functions that only government can effectively perform.  I think that makes you a libertarian.  I believe in liberty for liberty&#8217;s sake and that it is the natural state of things, but I also believe that liberty will inevitably lead to a more humane/prosperous society and this is the only argument that will begin to reach those who believe that we need to engineer humanity and prosperity into society.  </p>
<p>Given the opportunity to function cooperatively and to live peacefully with each other, humans will do that because that is how we, in general, are hardwired.  If we were not, we would have expired as a species a hundred thousand years ago.  It doesn&#8217;t take altruism or particular &#8220;social consciousness&#8221;.  Our intentions are irrelevant (as has been revealed time after time through human history &#8211; the road to hell having been paved over and over again with &#8220;good intentions&#8221;.  My point is that libertarianism is NOT utopian and it is the only political philosophy that is not and the side effect of liberty is a more humane society and that i more people understood that they would find that their contempt for libertarians is entirely misplaced.  My best, Doug</p>
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		<title>By: Linda Brady Traynham</title>
		<link>http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/neither-left-nor-right/comment-page-1/#comment-5062</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda Brady Traynham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/?p=6120#comment-5062</guid>
		<description>Dear Devin:

Sounds fine to me because all I want is a world with no &quot;Thou shalts&quot; and very few &quot;Thoou shalt nots.&quot;   Y&#039;know, the simple things, like no murder, stealing, torture, telling lies that get other people into trouble...oh, wait...we call those the people part of the ten commandments, don&#039;t we?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Devin:</p>
<p>Sounds fine to me because all I want is a world with no &#8220;Thou shalts&#8221; and very few &#8220;Thoou shalt nots.&#8221;   Y&#8217;know, the simple things, like no murder, stealing, torture, telling lies that get other people into trouble&#8230;oh, wait&#8230;we call those the people part of the ten commandments, don&#8217;t we?!</p>
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		<title>By: Devin Doyle</title>
		<link>http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/neither-left-nor-right/comment-page-1/#comment-5056</link>
		<dc:creator>Devin Doyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 03:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/?p=6120#comment-5056</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s difficult for there to be a common identity, let alone party, among libertarians though. To be a libertarian means to be self-reliant, so it would be difficult to mobilize true libertarians together as that collectivization contradicts the very things they believe. I&#039;m not saying libertarians can&#039;t unite; I&#039;m just saying they have a rough time uniting for its own sake. Communion is just the likely byproduct of PRACTICING libertarians. So good luck. I&#039;m a proud libertarian, but not a member of any LP party. Never will be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s difficult for there to be a common identity, let alone party, among libertarians though. To be a libertarian means to be self-reliant, so it would be difficult to mobilize true libertarians together as that collectivization contradicts the very things they believe. I&#8217;m not saying libertarians can&#8217;t unite; I&#8217;m just saying they have a rough time uniting for its own sake. Communion is just the likely byproduct of PRACTICING libertarians. So good luck. I&#8217;m a proud libertarian, but not a member of any LP party. Never will be.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Ross</title>
		<link>http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/neither-left-nor-right/comment-page-1/#comment-5030</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 14:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/?p=6120#comment-5030</guid>
		<description>Justice Defined: We are all free to profit or suffer and learn (adapt to excellence) by facing the consequences of our OWN choices. Injustice is to be forced to suffer the consequences of choices of unaccountable (irresponsible) others.

The &quot;rule of law&quot; once ENFORCED peace and justice, now rationalized away:

http://www.nazisociopaths.org/modules/article/view.article.php/c1/34

&quot;The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern. The law of liberty tends to abolish the reign of race over race, of faith over faith, of class over class.&quot; ~ Lord Acton

Darwin also warned us: Survival EQUALS ability to adapt to environment EQUALS ability to choose correctly EQUALS freedom:

http://www.nazisociopaths.org/modules/article/view.article.php/36

THINK about it:

http://www.nazisociopaths.org/modules/article/view.article.php/c1/33</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justice Defined: We are all free to profit or suffer and learn (adapt to excellence) by facing the consequences of our OWN choices. Injustice is to be forced to suffer the consequences of choices of unaccountable (irresponsible) others.</p>
<p>The &#8220;rule of law&#8221; once ENFORCED peace and justice, now rationalized away:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nazisociopaths.org/modules/article/view.article.php/c1/34" rel="nofollow">http://www.nazisociopaths.org/......php/c1/34</a></p>
<p>&#8220;The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern. The law of liberty tends to abolish the reign of race over race, of faith over faith, of class over class.&#8221; ~ Lord Acton</p>
<p>Darwin also warned us: Survival EQUALS ability to adapt to environment EQUALS ability to choose correctly EQUALS freedom:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nazisociopaths.org/modules/article/view.article.php/36" rel="nofollow">http://www.nazisociopaths.org/.....cle.php/36</a></p>
<p>THINK about it:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nazisociopaths.org/modules/article/view.article.php/c1/33" rel="nofollow">http://www.nazisociopaths.org/......php/c1/33</a></p>
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		<title>By: Linda Brady Traynham</title>
		<link>http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/neither-left-nor-right/comment-page-1/#comment-5028</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda Brady Traynham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/?p=6120#comment-5028</guid>
		<description>Dear Emtravels:

Blink.  What set YOU off?  As part of &quot;do unto others&quot; how about starting off being nice?  It always works for me--and I could always turn nasty if it didn&#039;t. 

 You made an excellent point that the people who bought the pups were trying to get something for nothing.  Most of them deserved what happened to them, but all of us were damaged by their actions and the greed (or helplessness) of bankers and lust for power of politicians.  That is all beyond our control, and Epictetus is ALWAYS right.  Ignore it, and go on living a moral life.  I disagree totally; the statists have taught for over 50 years that the world is in shades of gray...but it is not so.  Almost everything is black or white with  a very few instances of mitigating circumstances.   Go live the best, most moral life that YOU can, and work out how to protect yourself and yours.  At least you like goats!  Linda</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Emtravels:</p>
<p>Blink.  What set YOU off?  As part of &#8220;do unto others&#8221; how about starting off being nice?  It always works for me&#8211;and I could always turn nasty if it didn&#8217;t. </p>
<p> You made an excellent point that the people who bought the pups were trying to get something for nothing.  Most of them deserved what happened to them, but all of us were damaged by their actions and the greed (or helplessness) of bankers and lust for power of politicians.  That is all beyond our control, and Epictetus is ALWAYS right.  Ignore it, and go on living a moral life.  I disagree totally; the statists have taught for over 50 years that the world is in shades of gray&#8230;but it is not so.  Almost everything is black or white with  a very few instances of mitigating circumstances.   Go live the best, most moral life that YOU can, and work out how to protect yourself and yours.  At least you like goats!  Linda</p>
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		<title>By: Emtravels</title>
		<link>http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/neither-left-nor-right/comment-page-1/#comment-5022</link>
		<dc:creator>Emtravels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/?p=6120#comment-5022</guid>
		<description>&quot;Moreover, they tend to be primarily concerned with how they feel about their supposed altruism rather than the actual consequences of their initiatives. There are multitudes of examples of the way good intentions and supposedly progressive legislation has led to the suffering of those it is intended to help. This current recession/depression is a typical example, due in large part to the “ownership society” initiative which was intended to put anybody who wanted into a home of their own. It sounded good, but where are so many of those people now? How many of those people who could not pay their mortgages with their teaser rates are now on the street and have nothing?&quot;

OMG...you are confused. All these people in houses they can&#039;t pay for are the result, not of anyone&#039;s good intentions, nor progressive thought come true, but the leavings of opportunists who led down the primrose path people who couldn&#039;t figure out where it would all end for them.  And the opportunists  looked just to the next bonus for signing up the most people that week, They didn&#039;t have  the integrity not to take advantage of those they fleeced. Follow the money....everybody in the chain looked towards the Friday paycheck. So locked away their social and person conscience. 
And when did anyone in this society ever stress the principle that one never, never, never, risks the roof over one&#039;s head? Those of us who repeated this were ignored and laughed at. The money would pour down forever.  There was too much money to be made taking both money and dignity from&quot; the least of these.&quot; The worst thing this country has endured is the opening of the big money pot that Social Security and Medicare created. And then the government guarantee of insurance against risky behaviour. Wherever there is a pot of money, somebody will go after it. And sure enough, they did. But what is the cost to us all of having people sleeping on our sidewalks, as in Calcutta, and dying of contagious untreatable diseases in the slums of our nation? Nothing, until it&#039;s your family that contracts one of these diseases. 

The trouble is, life is complicated--especially when there are large numbers of people involved.  There are few or no rights and wrongs anymore. Most of it is a grey area. Education and wisdom are needed, but  MTV and comic strip thought rule. 

&quot;Do unto others...&quot; seems like a good rule to me. I&#039;d like to see more of that in my world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Moreover, they tend to be primarily concerned with how they feel about their supposed altruism rather than the actual consequences of their initiatives. There are multitudes of examples of the way good intentions and supposedly progressive legislation has led to the suffering of those it is intended to help. This current recession/depression is a typical example, due in large part to the “ownership society” initiative which was intended to put anybody who wanted into a home of their own. It sounded good, but where are so many of those people now? How many of those people who could not pay their mortgages with their teaser rates are now on the street and have nothing?&#8221;</p>
<p>OMG&#8230;you are confused. All these people in houses they can&#8217;t pay for are the result, not of anyone&#8217;s good intentions, nor progressive thought come true, but the leavings of opportunists who led down the primrose path people who couldn&#8217;t figure out where it would all end for them.  And the opportunists  looked just to the next bonus for signing up the most people that week, They didn&#8217;t have  the integrity not to take advantage of those they fleeced. Follow the money&#8230;.everybody in the chain looked towards the Friday paycheck. So locked away their social and person conscience.<br />
And when did anyone in this society ever stress the principle that one never, never, never, risks the roof over one&#8217;s head? Those of us who repeated this were ignored and laughed at. The money would pour down forever.  There was too much money to be made taking both money and dignity from&#8221; the least of these.&#8221; The worst thing this country has endured is the opening of the big money pot that Social Security and Medicare created. And then the government guarantee of insurance against risky behaviour. Wherever there is a pot of money, somebody will go after it. And sure enough, they did. But what is the cost to us all of having people sleeping on our sidewalks, as in Calcutta, and dying of contagious untreatable diseases in the slums of our nation? Nothing, until it&#8217;s your family that contracts one of these diseases. </p>
<p>The trouble is, life is complicated&#8211;especially when there are large numbers of people involved.  There are few or no rights and wrongs anymore. Most of it is a grey area. Education and wisdom are needed, but  MTV and comic strip thought rule. </p>
<p>&#8220;Do unto others&#8230;&#8221; seems like a good rule to me. I&#8217;d like to see more of that in my world.</p>
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		<title>By: Emtravels</title>
		<link>http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/neither-left-nor-right/comment-page-1/#comment-5021</link>
		<dc:creator>Emtravels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:01:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/?p=6120#comment-5021</guid>
		<description>Mr. Carkuff
Kindly refrain from telling me that I hate you and detest you. 
You don&#039;t know me. 
Obviously you are frustrated at not being able to persuade enough people to your way of thinking. If everyone shared you view of life, Linda would not have such trouble finding suitable farm help. 
You seem to think that because I  view the world in a particular way, then I agree with ALL that is done by my government. Not true. But no one cares and  my liberty allows me to disagree without making a big deal of it. I&#039;m in the same boat you are, wondering why so many don&#039;t see the world my way.

Get you some goats. They don&#039;t take forty acres. And the dream you put off is the one most likely not to be realized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Carkuff<br />
Kindly refrain from telling me that I hate you and detest you.<br />
You don&#8217;t know me.<br />
Obviously you are frustrated at not being able to persuade enough people to your way of thinking. If everyone shared you view of life, Linda would not have such trouble finding suitable farm help.<br />
You seem to think that because I  view the world in a particular way, then I agree with ALL that is done by my government. Not true. But no one cares and  my liberty allows me to disagree without making a big deal of it. I&#8217;m in the same boat you are, wondering why so many don&#8217;t see the world my way.</p>
<p>Get you some goats. They don&#8217;t take forty acres. And the dream you put off is the one most likely not to be realized.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda Brady Traynham</title>
		<link>http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/neither-left-nor-right/comment-page-1/#comment-5015</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda Brady Traynham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 12:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/?p=6120#comment-5015</guid>
		<description>Hi, first Peter!  What kind of girls do you have?  Aren&#039;t they wonderful?!  Life without goats is is missing a very wonderful thing.  I think we just came up with something worthy of Ayn Rand:  &quot;Let us work towards a world where NO ONE denies our right to sell goat juice and the right of others to buy it!&quot;  Cordially, Linda</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, first Peter!  What kind of girls do you have?  Aren&#8217;t they wonderful?!  Life without goats is is missing a very wonderful thing.  I think we just came up with something worthy of Ayn Rand:  &#8220;Let us work towards a world where NO ONE denies our right to sell goat juice and the right of others to buy it!&#8221;  Cordially, Linda</p>
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		<title>By: 1peter2:16</title>
		<link>http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/neither-left-nor-right/comment-page-1/#comment-5006</link>
		<dc:creator>1peter2:16</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/?p=6120#comment-5006</guid>
		<description>Excuse my error - Doug.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse my error &#8211; Doug.</p>
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		<title>By: 1peter2:16</title>
		<link>http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/neither-left-nor-right/comment-page-1/#comment-5005</link>
		<dc:creator>1peter2:16</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/?p=6120#comment-5005</guid>
		<description>Dave - Get some goats (the ultimate libertarian domesticated animal) and you will see again why people hate defenders of liberty.  I am almost univerally mocked for my herd...just don&#039;t try to sell raw milk.  1 Peter 2:16</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave &#8211; Get some goats (the ultimate libertarian domesticated animal) and you will see again why people hate defenders of liberty.  I am almost univerally mocked for my herd&#8230;just don&#8217;t try to sell raw milk.  1 Peter 2:16</p>
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