Comments on: Rednecks, White Trash, and Blue Collars, Part 3 http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/rednecks-white-trash-and-blue-collars-part-3/ Whiskey and Gunpowder features articles on gold, oil, currencies, emerging markets, energy, and more. Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:22:51 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Scotch-Irish group think http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/rednecks-white-trash-and-blue-collars-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-3508 Scotch-Irish group think Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:23:57 +0000 http://agoratestsite.com/wordpresswhiskey/?p=877#comment-3508 I'll start this message out with a disclaimer, I'm a libertarian Ron Paulite. Perhaps I'm still chewing sour grapes and my characterizations might seem unfair. And as you pointed out people are individuals and do have agency, and do occasionally use their heads for something other than a hat-rack. People can always surprise you, but there still are patterns that hold true. I'm not talking about individual issues: drugs, abortion, homosexuality, but rather the way in which people deal with the world and how they address on those issues. But here goes. I think there are two distinct subgroups within this larger rural American culture you allude to: Westerners and Southerners. Having grown up in the South, and lived and worked in the Mountain West (but not on the West Coast!) I can tell you that genuine stay-off-my-back libertarianism as found in states like Nevada, California, Montana, Arizona, etc. can't be found in much of the Southeast. Based on my own experience of growing up in the rural South, and then encountering Americans from other parts of the country, I am continually struck on how communal, geroncratic, and hierarchical my people are. My relatives might rail at the federal government, and some will do the small government and everyman an island talking points, but they don't buck the system, and respond negatively to anything not condoned by authority. My sister was "odd" for jogging back in the 1990s, but once people saw President Bush doing it, I started seeing more people engage in it, in a sort of half-hearted way. Southerners do what they are told by local political, economic, clerical, and [perhaps most importantly] television authorities. In many ways, I found the people I grew up around to be much more like Russians, Middle Easterners, and Latin Americans then the typical "American" stereotypes of the rugged cowboy or suburban Yankee go-getter. I believe deToqueville came to the same conclusion concerning Southerners, whom he said resembled Latin Americans more than their Yankee counterparts. Personally, I wasn't surprised when Ashcroft acted like such a big government thug regarding marijuana prohibition and how popular that was amongst Southern values voters. But, given the right message, these people would immediately shift their opinions regarding "dope." After all, most of them have no problems with tobacco, alcohol, and rampant perscription drug use. When I was younger and more annoyed by hypocritical paternalistic expectations I used to try and engage my relatives in debate, pointing out the inconsistencies in their opinions. I quickly learned to never try and tell them that farm-aid, the VA, or medicare are all forms of welfare, or try to explain that it isn't the job of government to bring the factories back, that nobody owes them a job, and that the Southeast is the largest recipient of social safety-net spending. I gave up. I will say this, local and familial communalism might prove to be a benefit if the US suffers any major economic catastrophe. But, on the other hand, Southerners' reluctance to try new approaches to problem-solving, unless approved by authorities, and to benefit from dramatic shifts in economic patterns, might prove to be their downfall. We'll all sit around and wait for the factories to come back, in the same way our ancestors kept using old fashioned farming techniques. I guess my point is, coming from a native son who actually believes in small government, entrepenueral dynamism, and laissez faire economics, and has travelled a bit, these people aren't as distinctly American as you guys would propose. In many ways, they resemble other peasant cultures found in Europe and the Middle East. As with those other peasants, Southern peasants almost always rely on common concensus even when they engage in "rebellious" behavior. Raising he&ll on Saturday night and repenting on Sunday morning ain't individualism, it's done been done. Also, despite their claims to the contrary, they are no more off the grid than any Starbucks denizen. We've forgotten so much that our grandparents knew how to do in terms of substinance skills, I suspect we will all starve if Walmart closes up. Wow, I didn't intend to be so negative, oh well. I’ll start this message out with a disclaimer, I’m a libertarian Ron Paulite. Perhaps I’m still chewing sour grapes and my characterizations might seem unfair. And as you pointed out people are individuals and do have agency, and do occasionally use their heads for something other than a hat-rack. People can always surprise you, but there still are patterns that hold true. I’m not talking about individual issues: drugs, abortion, homosexuality, but rather the way in which people deal with the world and how they address on those issues. But here goes.
I think there are two distinct subgroups within this larger rural American culture you allude to: Westerners and Southerners. Having grown up in the South, and lived and worked in the Mountain West (but not on the West Coast!) I can tell you that genuine stay-off-my-back libertarianism as found in states like Nevada, California, Montana, Arizona, etc. can’t be found in much of the Southeast. Based on my own experience of growing up in the rural South, and then encountering Americans from other parts of the country, I am continually struck on how communal, geroncratic, and hierarchical my people are. My relatives might rail at the federal government, and some will do the small government and everyman an island talking points, but they don’t buck the system, and respond negatively to anything not condoned by authority. My sister was “odd” for jogging back in the 1990s, but once people saw President Bush doing it, I started seeing more people engage in it, in a sort of half-hearted way. Southerners do what they are told by local political, economic, clerical, and [perhaps most importantly] television authorities. In many ways, I found the people I grew up around to be much more like Russians, Middle Easterners, and Latin Americans then the typical “American” stereotypes of the rugged cowboy or suburban Yankee go-getter. I believe deToqueville came to the same conclusion concerning Southerners, whom he said resembled Latin Americans more than their Yankee counterparts.

Personally, I wasn’t surprised when Ashcroft acted like such a big government thug regarding marijuana prohibition and how popular that was amongst Southern values voters. But, given the right message, these people would immediately shift their opinions regarding “dope.” After all, most of them have no problems with tobacco, alcohol, and rampant perscription drug use. When I was younger and more annoyed by hypocritical paternalistic expectations I used to try and engage my relatives in debate, pointing out the inconsistencies in their opinions. I quickly learned to never try and tell them that farm-aid, the VA, or medicare are all forms of welfare, or try to explain that it isn’t the job of government to bring the factories back, that nobody owes them a job, and that the Southeast is the largest recipient of social safety-net spending. I gave up. I will say this, local and familial communalism might prove to be a benefit if the US suffers any major economic catastrophe. But, on the other hand, Southerners’ reluctance to try new approaches to problem-solving, unless approved by authorities, and to benefit from dramatic shifts in economic patterns, might prove to be their downfall. We’ll all sit around and wait for the factories to come back, in the same way our ancestors kept using old fashioned farming techniques.

I guess my point is, coming from a native son who actually believes in small government, entrepenueral dynamism, and laissez faire economics, and has travelled a bit, these people aren’t as distinctly American as you guys would propose. In many ways, they resemble other peasant cultures found in Europe and the Middle East. As with those other peasants, Southern peasants almost always rely on common concensus even when they engage in “rebellious” behavior. Raising he&ll on Saturday night and repenting on Sunday morning ain’t individualism, it’s done been done. Also, despite their claims to the contrary, they are no more off the grid than any Starbucks denizen. We’ve forgotten so much that our grandparents knew how to do in terms of substinance skills, I suspect we will all starve if Walmart closes up. Wow, I didn’t intend to be so negative, oh well.

]]>